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All In: Student Pathways Forward
This podcast focuses on elevating community college student voices to shape inclusive higher education and workforce development policies, practice and partnerships that create economic mobility.
All In: Student Pathways Forward
Job Quality, Racial Equity & Systems Transformation - a Conversation with Clair Minson, Founder & Principal Consultant at Sandra Grace LLC
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This special episode features an engaging and thought-provoking discussion with Clair Minson, a leading voice and expert on workforce system transformation and the Founder and Principal consultant at Sandra Grace LLC, a change management firm that provides training, consulting and thought partnership to organizations seeking to embed racial equity into their practice and policy work.
Clair highlights the intersectionality of job quality, racial equity and systems change work required across the community college and workforce development ecosystem to provide equitable pathways for careers with economic mobility. She shares valuable insights on how critical it is to truly center student, worker and learner voices, and how practitioners need to recognize the expertise that comes through student and worker lived experience and navigating systems that were not designed by or for them. Clair talks about the importance of breaking down silos across the workforce and higher ed ecosystem that maintain white supremacy and structural racism impacting Black and non-Black learners and workers of color.
The discussion moves to how colleges can integrate racial equity into their partnership work with employers aligning with the company’s talent development priorities.
This special episode along with the next are a chance to go deeper with workforce development policy and practice experts on the topic of job quality.
The All In: Student Pathways Forwardpodcast is a part of Oregon’s participation in the National Skills Coalition SkillSPAN network.
Welcome to the All-En Student Pathways Forum podcast, in which we center Oregon community college student and graduate voices to seek inclusive policies, practice, and partnerships. This is the host, Mark Goldberg, and the next two episodes will be a brief departure from the typical all-in format to allow for a deeper dive on job quality. We'll hear from two workforce development leaders with expertise and inclusive policies and practice across the field that can be advanced through the collaboration and extension experts of colleges, employers, and community partners. We'll come back next month with a regular episode featuring according to college students or graduates and executive leaders from their respective colleges and industry partners. In this episode, I have the privilege of speaking with Claire Mason, the founder and principal consultant at Standard Race Link. As a workforce development leader, Claire has focused on the intersection of racial equity and workforce development, examining the manifestations of systemic and institutional racism in workforce policies, practice, and cultural domesticity. We have a great discussion of college employer partnership work and how any workforce initiatives tied to building an inclusive talent pipeline into job quality must integrate and prioritize racial equity to meet equitable economic outcomes. Thanks for listening in. I'd like to welcome Claire Minson to the podcast today. Claire is the founder and principal consultant at Sandra Grace LLC, a change management firm that provides training, consulting, and thought partnership to organizations seeking to embed racial equity practices in their organizational, operational, and programmatic activities. Claire is a seasoned workforce development leader and a nationally sought-after speaker, trainer, and workshop facilitator. Welcome, Claire, to the All-In Student Pathways Forward Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me, and I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I look forward to this conversation. I wanted to start in discussing the focus for this season of the All In Podcast on the topic of job quality. And I've had the honor of interviewing community college graduates across our state of Oregon, now working in quality jobs, however they define that, along with executives of those respective businesses and college presidents, all on job quality and partnerships. I wanted to ask you from your perspective, why is it important for colleges, workforce development providers, and employers to consider the entire career pathway to work on advancing equitable access to education and credential completion along with increasing job quality?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. And I think it boils down to like if you don't focus on the entire career pathway and on job quality, then we're not really going to make the kind of advances we want to see related to economic equity and social equity in our society and for people who have been historically and continue to be marginalized and left out. And so a focus on job quality and the entire continuum of career pathways ensures that workers have access to wages, right, that allow them to thrive in the way that they define that and access to benefits that allows them to take care of themselves and their family members and the other resources they need ultimately to create the kind of life that's important to them. And so I think, you know, if we say we care about equitable outcomes for people, and particularly people who have been excluded andor left out or segregated in particular lower wage occupations, then we actually have to focus on not only the pathways across the different sectors, if you will, as well as job quality as one part of the work of equity.
SPEAKER_02It seems like for those of us in the community college world and higher education, our own ecosystem of higher ed has so many historical inequities with policies and practice that a lot of the energy as it should goes into disrupting those policies and building practices and systems that close equity gaps, but recognizing that the employment side and the workforce and employers are their own ecosystem that have the same history, parallel history in a way. So I think, as you described, looking at wages and occupational segregation and benefits, that they're connected, right? Those systems are connected. If we don't connect them, then we can prepare students for the workforce. We can have equitable outcomes in terms of college completion, but ultimately it doesn't change the bottom line as far as economic equity, is as you said. Correct. So I wanted to just stay on this broad topic and world of workforce development and know that you published a LinkedIn article and wrote it in 2020 during the height of the COVID pandemic that called out how the field of workforce development, which I would include high-red in community colleges to be a part of, has perpetuated historical inequities with Black and non-Black workers of color and needs a reckoning. And you challenge workforce professionals to quote, use our power to disrupt the status quo and workforce development in a real way. And I wanted to ask if you would say more about this reality and how some organizations are doing this critical work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, you know, if we think of ourselves, I guess I should take a step back and say, I believe in the potential of our ecosystem, right? Our workforce development ecosystem. And I think we sit in a unique position to really disrupt kind of business as usual and get us to economic equity, right, at the societal level. If all of the actors in our ecosystem really more deeply embedded equity and racial equity specifically as a practice, then we would see racial equity as an outcome. And so I think that starts with recognizing our role in workforce development as a bridge, if you will, or as the connector of workers and talent, right, talented people to education and career opportunities, where they then can use their talents and their skills in ways that are meaningful to them. And if we see ourselves as sitting at that intersection of talent and opportunity, then I think we have a responsibility to make sure that we are connecting folks to opportunity that is not truncating, you know, individual access to career advancement, if you will, and making sure that we are, I think, faithfully stewarding, right? People who entrust us with their lives and their futures, quite honestly. And so that responsibility means that to make sure that we aren't maintaining systems that keep people excluded or marginalized or under fringes, right? While we as organizations or practitioners then reap benefits. And I know that may feel harsh, but I think sometimes doing this work in earnest requires some harsh statements or realities to be named, which is what I attempted to do in that article because I was feeling frustrated with the conversations that I was a part of, both locally where I was at the time and nationally. And I think since that time, lots of organizations in our ecosystem and workforce development field have named explicitly racial equity as a priority. They've hired consultants to help them. They've more intentionally embedded the language of equity in their work. They're trying to center worker and learner voices. They are ensuring that there's representative talent, right, at their respective organizations at all levels in the organization and particularly in leadership. So I think groups have moved beyond where we were in 2020. I will always be the one to say the one, the one on the Enneagram in me, the reformer in me, always wants to say, and there's more we can do, and there is. And I will pause to say I think that we've made significant progress in wanting to be more race conscious as a field and wanting to really think about equity intentionally and authentically, and wanting to engage workers and learners of color in particular who have been excluded, and doing that in, I think, really meaningful and authentic ways.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for sharing that. Even if there's been a lot of progress in organizations within the ecosystem calling it out and doing meaningful work in the different ways you described, there's the same responsibility and urgency when we look at these historical inequities and also the disparate impact of COVID on top of that. Yeah. Just appreciate the way that you've framed it, explained it, and also empowered in a way organizations to take that responsibility and that agency in this work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, COVID, I think, in many ways, as harmful as it has been, has also there have been some silver linings, I like to say. And I think created an opportunity where there was this moment to really sit and look and think differently about how we work and you know what needs to change in our systems and our ways of working. And so it felt like a really timely moment to advance a conversation that I'd been having for years prior to that, but I think on a more global or national scale.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well, I remember reading it, and as a workforce development professional for many years, it really hit home and gave a lot of thought and pause. And again, an urgency to the work. Still is a powerful and important message, and appreciate you sharing that with the field.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks.
SPEAKER_02So I wanted to talk a little bit about a project that I've had the privilege of working with you on some, the CTE CoLab Grant, which is led by Urban Institute in partnership with NCWE, the National Council on Workforce Education, World Education, NCATC, the National Coalition of Advanced Technology Centers, ITC, Instructional Technology Council, and the University of Pittsburgh School of Education. So a lot of organizations, all collaborating to support a cohort of colleges working to reduce disparities in academic and career outcomes for students of color enrolled in credit-bearing online post-secondary CTE programs. And one of the recent trainings you led for this group was on how colleges can engage more deeply with employer partners on advancing racial equity. I wanted to ask if you could share more about this topic and where you see the intersections with job quality.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the way that I approach the work, job quality is the work of equity, right? I think sometimes we tend to separate it. And I think I can understand some of the reasons why. But really, job quality serves the greater goal of equity, right? So I don't think we can get to equitable outcomes, and particularly if we're thinking about work as a pathway to economic equity or employment and income. We can't get there without a focus on job quality and really taking a deep dive into what that means in our workplaces when we think about the context of work. So to that end, then employers play a key role in ensuring that the jobs and their workplace, like it's quality, is welcoming, it's inclusive, and it's a context where workers feel safe psychologically and physically, and where workers feel like they have the opportunity to stay, to advance, and to thrive and kind of chart their own course, if you will. So again, if we think about this sitting at the intersection of talent and opportunity, right? As practitioners, we sit at that intersection and employers sit at that intersection as well. And we're working as practitioners with employers, then I think again, there's a responsibility to engage in meaningful conversations with employers about equity and about job quality specifically. Sometimes those conversations can be hard, but we do hard things all the time. So my pushback is that it's like we make the decision to do hard things all the time. And so leveraging some of what we already know how to do in terms of engaging and doing hard things, I think we can apply those lessons to this particular conversation. I do think, though, it's important when we're talking about job quality and equity and topics that can potentially make some employer partners uncomfortable or if they don't have their own commitments themselves. I do think the relationship is important, right? That relationship and that rapport that you build and particularly trust so that you as a practitioner are engaging in conversations with employers who understand that there's like a mutual respect and there's a mutual goal that you're working towards to achieve. And that the topic that you're raising is in service of that mutual goal, right? And not to antagonize and not to blow the whistle, right, without having a result, but to really say this actually a focus on equity and job quality helps you achieve the retention goals that you have or the advancement goals that you have. And I think there's nuance to those conversations, but ultimately it benefits everybody involved to really focus on job quality and equity. And what I have learned in the last year, in particular in working with groups, in how to have conversations, is really about giving people the language to use when they engage in conversations. So sometimes we just don't feel equipped to start that conversation, especially if it's with an employer partner who either doesn't have a commitment or hasn't expressed a commitment to equity, then how do you approach that subject? And so I tend to spend some time sharing conversation starters with groups that folks have really latched on to because it gives them language to then enter in a conversation in a way that I think is inviting, is welcoming, and does not raise defenses.
SPEAKER_02I think recognizing for some employers, it may be a new conversation, but ultimately, at least now more than ever, we have a situation where employers are really scrambling to find and retain talent. And so it feels like the opportune time to talk about job quality and racial equity work. There are so many different ways to move this work forward. And I think as you described the relationship and the trust and even those conversation starters is just understanding where there's opportunity with where the business is at.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think the other piece I wanted to name too is that it's important for groups, for colleges in this case who want to engage with employer partners in this conversation. I think it's also really important to do their own internal assessment, right? Like, okay, do we have the language? Do we have the skills? Do we have the capacity to support an employer partner on this journey? And if we don't, is there a partner that we can bring to the table to walk alongside all of us in this? I think that's really important that we recognize that we don't always have to be the subject matter experts, but we can partner with people who can do a particular set of work really well. So I may be able to come in and help nuance, you know, and engage in the conversation in a way that a college or a partner may not be ready to, but can grow to while also supporting an employer or engaging in that conversation with an employer partner. So recognizing where we are in our respective journeys and where we may need some additional partnership and support to engage in conversations that we know are important.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for sharing that. And I was thinking about the responsibility of colleges or workforce agencies if they are going to be engaging with employers on racial equity work. You have to look in the mirror first too. And you have to understand your own organization's work and responsibility. But I think most importantly, what I heard is that organizations, be it a college or a workforce entity, may not have the language, may not have the skills, and bringing in an expert like yourself to help drive and lead that conversation can be really beneficial.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. So they give themselves time to learn, right? Because it's being modeled in the language to get comfortable with the conversations, but it's not at the expense of leaving a partner behind or waiting, you know, until they get caught up to then bring an employer partner along. Because I think the time matters.
SPEAKER_02For sure. So on a related note, I had the privilege of hearing your keynote presentation or address at the recent National Skills Coalition Skills in the States Forum. And in that powerful keynote, you spoke to 10 things our field of workforce development must do to realize a racially equitable and just society. And one of these was to recognize that when our systems remain siloed, it maintains white supremacy and structural racism. I wanted to ask if you could elaborate on this as it relates to community colleges and their work with employers, workforce development boards, state workforce entities, and community-based organizations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, silos maintain the system because silos reduce transparency and accountability, right? So everybody gets to do their own thing while not actually thinking about what the fallouts of what everybody doing their own thing can mean. So it creates a context where the key players in an ecosystem aren't necessarily thinking to work together, even though through working together they can actually realize better outcomes, right? Like so we can get to scale. We like to say all the time, we can get to these outcomes that we're pursuing if we actually realize that we're better together. And so I thought of this analogy, right? Like imagine if you were sick and your sickness impacted multiple organs in your body, but none of your specialists spoke together to create a holistic plan for your healing. So something one doctor does could undermine something the other doctor does, which then negatively impacts you, the patient, the individual in the seat, right? Needing the healing and needing the care. And so that to me, I think is a good example of what can happen when the specialists don't speak or when all the players in the ecosystem aren't coming up with a holistic strategy, right? Playing to their strengths, but coming up with a holistic strategy to make sure that what they're putting in place doesn't undermine the other persons, but it actually is all in service of the individuals and the participants, right? The students, the workers, the learners who are ultimately benefiting, hopefully, from the services that they're offering. So when our systems, the partners don't work together, it then creates a context where the ways in which racism manifests in institutions and structures then get to stay there. Oftentimes in siloed contexts, we're not necessarily thinking about eliminating duplication of effort. You know, I'm collecting this data and you're collecting this data and the burden that puts on the individual who has to fill out all of the forms. So you can reduce those duplications. You can actually, I think, get a clear sense of what are the ways that your policies or your practices at the end of respective institution are harming the individual job seeker, the learner, the student, the worker, and or the ways they're actually not in service of equity, because then you're having conversations, right? So it does require a layer of vulnerability and transparency, which also lends to the accountability because you're sharing information, you're sharing challenges and resources with partners who are all trying to accomplish a similar goal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was thinking about that analogy. And as you described, if there's eight physicians with their own specialties, the patient, if they're completely siloed, is having to have eight different meetings with each physician while they're sick. And that's exhausting in itself. And so why not have everybody? I don't know if the analogy fits, but one conversation with everyone makes it much simpler and less risky and less exhausting for the patient or harmful to the patient because they don't have to do this over and over again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Just making it worse in a way, even just in those meetings and discussions, which is one small part of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, because a system of racism dehumanizes people, right? And so it does not necessarily center people in its design. It could care less, quite honestly. It's trying to maintain a particular system, a particular context that has been put in place that serves one group of people and does a disservice to a large set of people who are predominantly people of color. And so our working together really disrupts that business as usual or that system that's trying to maintain racial winners and losers, essentially.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, it's a good segue into the next question. And one of the other topics you spoke about from that same keynote is the importance of listening to and believing the experiences of Black and non-Black learners and workers of color. The All-in Student Pathways Forward podcast is one very small way of lifting up the voices, experiences, and recommendations of students, graduates, and workers from Oregon Community Colleges and respective employer partners. I wanted to ask what are some effective ways of centering worker and learners' experiences and insights to shape more inclusive policies and practice?
SPEAKER_00Such a good question. I want to go back to the preamble to that. I think what's important to get to the effective ways of centering work and learner experiences is having that personal reckoning. I think believing workers and learners of color requires us as practitioners to recognize not only our privilege, but sometimes our disconnectedness from the systems that we're seeking to change and reform. And so if we're disconnected from a system, then we're limited in our knowledge of what's actually needed to change and reform that system. And if we have that recognition, right, and we have that reckoning for ourselves, then I think it can lead us to, well, actually, then I should be talking to folks who are currently involved with connected to this system that needs to be reformed and changed. So I think there's a position of humility there that's required. There's a recognition of the privilege positions that we sit in and realizing that, like, hey, I don't have all of the answers. And so let me find out from folks who are experiencing and navigating in real time these systems and probably have some solves that could make their lives easier. Right. So I think when we recognize that and operate in humility, it's easier to make room. For the voices of those who are currently impacted and navigating those systems. I think in addition to that, well, I don't know if there's in addition to that. I mean, I think we can think of probably like tactical ways, like advisory boards, right? Or worker and learner councils, which are similar, or feedback loops. But I really do think it starts with this recognition of like, I don't have all the answers. And particularly, I don't have all the answers if I am not actually navigating that system. And we know that there are people in our field, particularly those that work in direct service positions, who are navigating the same systems that our students and our workers are navigating. And so those are voices that we can make sure that we're listening to and including and valuing and honoring and respecting. But I do really think it starts with the recognition that I may be in this field, but I'm maybe 10 years removed from the kind of wages that students and workers are currently making that are keeping them in a cycle of poverty. And so maybe I don't have all the answers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I appreciate you backing up to just that awareness and recognition that practitioners may have different lived experiences or it may be at a different time period.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that posture disrupts a system of racism because it requires a recognition of self, one. But you know, the system of racism reinforces the idea that there are folks who know better than other folks. And usually the folks who know better than, right? Like have all of these layers of privilege or perceived or ascribed privilege. And folks who don't know better typically are those who, although have been excluded intentionally, right, are not in those positions of privilege or perceived or ascribed privilege. And so I think starting with humility and recognizing where we sit and being really authentic and not tokenizing, I think is the line that we have to tow sometimes when we have conversations about, you know, student voice, learn a voice, work a voice, is making sure that we're not tokenizing, but making sure that it's an authentic recognition that the individual has gifts, experiences, talents, you know, that are just as valuable as mine and that we are equal partners in this journey. No one person is better than the other. I may be positioned differently because of calm societal context, but that does not make me better, right? And it doesn't mean that I know more. And so it really requires a relinquishing and surrendering of power in many ways and ego, quite honestly. You know, I say this often. Imagine the skills that the individuals who are navigating a system that was meant to actually exclude them and kill them. Imagine the skill sets that they have. Right. And imagine how often we say they actually don't have any skills, yet they're surviving in a system that was meant to kill them. Right.
SPEAKER_02And have for a long period of time. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, undercover boss, who's the one that needs the skills training here?
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. Yeah. I appreciate you calling that out and also the way you described the need for that to be authentic and just relinquishing power in that dynamic, if we're truly listening to the expertise and insights of students, of workers, learners. And it just made me think of what uh student said in one of the podcast episodes, and it sticks with me, he said, like, if folks are gonna ask us what we think and what we need, if they're not gonna follow through and do anything, then it's almost worse that you asked, because then it is just words, right? And so there has to be an authenticity and a commitment to action based on what is shared. Because if not, then it feels like, as you described, it is just tokenism, right? Like, thank you for sharing your that's great, and then we just move on and keep doing what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yep, that's really good. Yep, well said.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, thank you for talking through that really important topic of student and worker voice. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask you a little bit more about your organization. So if you could share more about Sandra Grace LLC and the training, consulting, and thought partnership work you do with higher education, workforce development, and other organizations to embed racial equity practices into their policies, programmatic, and partnership activities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I gotta start with the name. So the name, Sandra, Grace, people are always confused, but Sandra's my mother and Grace is my grandmother, who are both deceased, but their names together mean brave defender of humanity with unmerited favor. And so that's the ethos with which I do the work. That's the ethos that lives in the company. But as a company, we envision a talent development ecosystem that is actively anti-racist and values, honors, fully and equitably supports Black and non-Black workers of color, which means then we are working to create conditions that fundamentally shift and transform the talent development ecosystem into one that produces racially equitable outcomes. And the ways that we're thinking about that or thinking about what impact means is like looking at people shifts, policy shifts, and practice shifts. So people shifts would be changes in thinking and behaviors and actions and language that are anti-racist and intentionally examine and seek to undo the system of racism and the ideology of white supremacy that's embedded within the talent development ecosystem. The practice shifts would be changes in practices at the organizational or institutional workplaces that are explicitly anti-racist and center communities who are racialized and historically marginalized. And then policy shifts would be changes in like organizational policies, little P and legislative policies, big P, that are explicitly anti-racist and again center in communities who are racialized and historically marginalized. And so that is that's our charge. That is the work that we are attempting to do every single day. And so that means every day looks a little different. But recognizing that, I think the way that I like to bottom line it is making sure that all of the players in this ecosystem have a really deep understanding of equity generally, racial equity specifically, anti-racism, even more specifically, and are embedding the principles and practices related to equity and anti-racism in their work so that as an ecosystem, we are really a conduit for equity and not one that maintains the system of racism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. Wanted to ask too a lot of our listeners to the podcast are in my state here of Oregon, but we have listeners from around the country. So if any listeners are interested in connecting with you and Sandra Grace LLC, what's the best way of finding you?
SPEAKER_00Sure, email works. So Claire at SandraGraceLLC.com and LinkedIn also works. I'm on LinkedIn a lot, which is just by my name, Claire Minton. Oh, Sandra Grace is also has a page on LinkedIn as well. Folks can go to the website, sandragracelc.com as well, and there'll be a way to connect with me from there.
SPEAKER_02Great. Just wanted to end by asking you there's anything else you'd like to add for this podcast episode before we wrap up.
SPEAKER_00No, not anything else. I mean, I think we've touched on a wide range of topics that are all really important to the work. I'm excited that this podcast exists and it's holding time and space for these kinds of conversations and trusting that through these conversations we'll see those people practice and policy shifts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I appreciate you taking the time. I just wanted to express my gratitude for having this conversation, and it's an honor to have you on the podcast and an opportunity for me and hopefully for our listeners to continue to learn from you and your work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Claire. Well, that'll do it for this special all-in Student Pathways Forward podcast episode. This is the host, Mark Goldberg. Thank you again for listening in and hope you'll tune in to the next workforce deep dive episode coming next week.